Question: In studying for this year’s recert, I started to wonder why the administration of intramuscular epinephrine was being advocated for a first line drug in the management of an arrest where the patient was suspected to be suffering from anaphylaxis. The impression from the protocol is that this procedure should be given priority over starting an IV or an IO. Given that as a routine course in all arrests, an ACP will usually manage to initiate an IV / IO and administer epinephrine (1.0 mg €“ twice the dose that would be given IM) early in the call, it doesn’t seem to make sense to delay the initiation of the line.

With few hands on scene, and the PCP partner performing CPR, the ACP will only likely be able to perform one procedure during the two minutes between rhythm analyses €“ draw up and deliver epi IM or initiate an IV and deliver epi IV €“ but probably not both. Since the patient was likely suffering profound vasodilation prior to the arrest, there is low likelihood that there would be much effectiveness in circulating the half millilitre of fluid that is administered IM into a deltoid using CPR alone (which, at best, is only 25% as effective as the heart pumping on it’s own). The introduction of epinephrine directly into the bloodstream would likely have a much higher probability of achieving systemic circulation and effect as compared to the IM injection.

The recommendation seems to stem from an interpretation of Part 12 of the 2010 AHA ECC guidelines (Cardiac Arrest in Special Circumstances) where the use of IM epinephrine in arrests of suspected anaphylactic etiology is advised as a modification in the management of a BLS arrest. The recommendation is not present in the modifications in the management of an ALS arrest where, conversely, it is advised that epinephrine is administered by IV where a line is present. In fact, the one recommendation for ALS modification in the management of anaphylactic arrests in the AHA ECC guidelines is absent from our protocols. Currently, a fluid bolus is only indicated where the patient presents in PEA, however, the AHA ECC guidelines make the recommendation that “Vasogenic shock from anaphylaxis may require aggressive fluid resuscitation (Class IIa, LOE C).”

I understand that OBHG MAC might have apprehensions in delaying the administration of epinephrine in circumstances where an IV or IO could not be initiated in short order, however, would it not be more effective to use IM epinephrine as a backup where the line could not be initiated quickly (as in the case with Glucagon vs. IV Dextrose)? The IM administration would also have a higher likelihood of success if given once optimal circulation due to CPR was achieved (which would not occur until a couple minutes into the call).

Thanks for your consideration!

Question: What position should patients be in when we are doing do a 12-lead?

For pediatric VSAs, at what heart rate do we initiate compressions?

Question: If an IV certified paramedic with a non-IV certified partner initiates a saline lock but does not give fluid or medication; can the partner without IV certification attend the call?

Question: The medical directives state that in order to call for a medical TOR one of the conditions is for the arrest to not be witnessed by EMS.

Does this just refer to EMS or does it include other emergency services, such as Nurses, Fire, Police or PSW? For example if PSW or Fire witnessed the arrest before EMS arrival and EMS arrived on scene and completed 4 analyzes and no shocks delivered, can EMS still call for a TOR because it was not witnessed by EMS?

Question: Can ALS take a pronouncement from the on-scene doctor at a retirement home? I ran the code, since the patient was full code, and got a pronouncement on the phone with the BHP. Once we stopped care, the guy who had been watching us, said that he was her doctor and didn’t think we would get her back.

I was wondering if that the on-scene doctor had said something at the beginning of the call, could I just ask him for the pronouncement instead of waiting for the BHP to come to the telephone? We cleared it with management to leave care with that doctor since police didn’t come to the scene to call the coroner and take over. Otherwise we would wait for police until we left scene.

Question: A nitro virgin patient presenting with chest pain attends a doctor’s office. Doctor administers 1 spray of nitro prior to EMS arrival. Upon assessment by EMS, patient still presents with chest pain. Is the patient still considered a virgin nitro patient as this is the first incident he/she has had with nitro? Or since the doctor administered a spray, does that count as a previous use of nitro?

Question: We are instructed to get the nitro in, if applicable, apply the CPAP and if there is improvement, do not remove the mask for additional nitro sprays. Is the improvement slight or significant? If slight improvement, do we leave the pressure at the slight improvement pressure or titrate 2.5cmH2O?

Question: If respirations are at or above 28, historically paramedics are taught to assist via BVM. What is the rationale with pulmonary edema to apply NRB with tachypnea instead of assisting with a BVM until CPAP and or nitro is prepared?

Question: If you come to a scenario being a PCP paramedic uncertified in IV, where when finding and assessing the patient you come to terms that he/she is VSA due to anaphylaxis.

Do you have to administer epi, because in the protocol for administering epi on a VSA, it says “in the event anaphylaxis is suspected as the causative event of the cardiac arrest, a single dose of 0.01mg/kg 1:1000 solution, to a maximum of 0.5mg IM, may be give prior to obtaining the IV/IO”. Since it is saying you “may” give it, do you know if you have a choice?

Question: There is some debate in regards to chest compression’s, monitor applied, analyze and then airway. What happens when the compression count is at thirty and the pads are still not applied? Does the paramedic at the chest check the oral cavity, get the airway, insert it, open the BVM bag, prepare the BVM and attempt 2 breaths or continue compression’s until the other medic applies the pads and the analysis is complete?

Question: VSA trauma patients – chest compressions and defib is the priority for this patient. C-spine maintained manually. In this scenario, is it mandatory to apply a collar prior to a shock being delivered as the manual c-spine must be removed to deliver the shock?

CPAP- indication b/p 100 or above systolic. Contraindication is hypotension. If CPAP is applied while normotensive, can we leave the device on until they become hypotensive or we must remove when b/p drops below 100? Thanks.

Question: I have read the post Jan. 31 2012 in regards to R/A vs. 02 when resuscitating a neonate. It states that 100% 02 will be used after 90 sec with compressions if HR is below 60. It also states that 100% 02 will be continued until HR is normal. Does this refer to 100 bpm?

The reason I ask is if I read the flow chart to the letter at 90 sec with a HR below 60, 02 and compressions are begun. If I reassess 30 sec later and the HR has improved above 60 but below 100 (ex. 80 bpm), I continue ventilating, but do I discontinue the 02 and use R/A only? Also compressions are to be discontinued. What is stance on using a pedi-mate on a critical or VSA neonate or child (below 40 lbs)? Is it necessary as it can be cumbersome and time consuming when trying to get off scene quickly?

Question: With reference to the cardiac ischemia protocol. Would it be possible to update the protocol for the administration of nitro (without a BHP consult) for normotensive patient on beta blockers by either: a) lowering the heart rate parameters from 60bpm to 50bpm or b) to lower heart rate parameter from 60bpm to 50bpm when patient is currently taking antihypertensive medications within the beta blocker family with an IV established?

Question: Is the IV protocol like others in that once the patient falls out of a protocol, they cannot be put back in. For example, patient initial BP less than 90 systolic, decision made to load patient prior to IV attempt, on loading patient BP now above 90.

Question: I was looking at the PCP Medical Cardiac Arrest Medical Directive. I understand that we can give IM epinephrine in the setting of an anaphylaxis induced VSA. In the event of a ROSC from this type of VSA can Benadryl be administered IM/IV? Is there any benefit to doing this?

Question: Is a non-IV certified paramedic allowed to monitor an IV started TKVO by an IV certified paramedic on route to the hospital?

Question: There have been a few discussions flying around about a call where the patient had an internal defib whose activity was captured shocking the patient X 3 by the EMS defib. Of course, the whole discussion is treat vs. transport and shock once vs. follow the entire protocol. Can you provide some insight into these rare cases?

Question: While taking our manual defibrillation training on the new LP15 we were told “if the rhythm is fast and wide, shock it” obviously the PT is pulseless as well. We were told the “fast” value is greater than 120. We were never told the “wide” value. I have asked both ACP and PCP paramedics and have gotten responses of 0.12, 0.16, and 0.20. So, could you tell me what SWORBHP considers the correct value for “fast”? Thanks!

Question: If we are treating a patient with acute cardiogenic pulmonary edema that is a nitro virgin that’s blood pressure is above 140 systolic and then their blood pressure drops below 140 systolic but not by one third then can we consider them now as not being a nitro virgin and therefore continue treating them with 0.4 nitro? Thank you for taking the time to answer all of these questions.

Question: A CHF patient who has a BP of over 140mmHg systolic who is getting 0.8mg of NTG for SOB, patient’s BP drops below 140mmHg so NTG dosage is changed to 0.4mg, patient’s systolic BP rebounds above 140mmHg. Does patient go back to getting 0.8mg of NTG or is it like the “once you are out, you are out” mentality that they stay at 0.4mg NTG?

General answers to this question from other paramedics I have asked usually say that the patient will continue to get 0.4mg of NTG regardless of systoloic BP, if it has dropped below 140mmHg at any time during the call. Thank you in advance for your time and help.

Question: I have a question regarding the order of cardiac ischemia SR medication in the protocol. I have been informed by a source that 0.4mg nitro should be the first SR medication given in a suspected cardiac ischemic event, followed by x2 80 mg ASA. I respectfully disagree with him due to the fact that although nitro is significantly more fast acting, its effects only last 3-5 minutes, hence the spray every 5 minutes stated in the protocol, and although the ASA is slower in its absorption rate, is effects will benefit the Pt. more (in my opinion) than the nitro. The short and sweet version, am I correct in saying that ASA should be administer first before the initial nitro dose is given, if the protocol for both is met.

Question: In the last year I have been presented with two different special occurrences regarding vital sign absent patients.

The first one involved a patient who was VSA on our arrival. We were presented with a legal living will as well as a note provided by a Doctor stating “DNR”. Unfortunately there was no ministry DNR validity form. We completed a full medical TOR as the patient met the requirements and after I was informed by co-workers that I could have called for a medical TOR after the first no shock indicated. They stated this was covered under special occurrence. I have looked and found no evidence of this existing although this could be very handy. Does such protocol or language exist?

The second incident involved a patient that we witnessed from a reasonable distance to be VSA. Due to safety reasons we could not access the patient for approximately 45 minutes. The patient did not meet obviously dead and didn’t have a DNR. We performed a medical TOR. Again informed that this falls under special occurrence and we could have called for medical tor after the first no shock indicated.

I’d really like to know if this is an option. It would come in handy for similar instances.

Question: I was just wondering if we have a patient with a valid DNR are we still allowed to Bolus if they fit our protocol or is this considered an advanced life saving technique?

Question: I apologize in advance if this question is redundant, but I have searched and cannot find an answer. For a crew where both medics are IV certified (autonomous certification), are both medics allowed 2 starts (4 attempts in total) on a single patient? Or are attempts limited to 2 attempts per patient regardless of who makes the attempts? Thanks.

Question: I am a PCP and was wondering what constitutes a IV attempt. Does simply palpating and visually assessing the patient constitute an attempt if I do not find an accessible vein and do not blindly pic attempt insertion?

Question: If a hypothermic patient re-arrests is it considered a new protocol or just continue transport? Due to the 1 shock protocol.

Question: Is a police officer considered a qualified personnel to be able to witness a cardiac arrest? In regards to “witnessed arrest”.

Question: This question is regarding a cardiac arrest from anaphylaxis. If epi is given and the patient has no ROSC, arrest is unwitnessed, and by the 3rd analysis no shock is given, is it acceptable to patch for TOR, or is the TOR contraindicated due to the arrest being of non-cardiac origin?

Question: This question is regarding cardiac arrest documentation expectations. Is it a requirement to document vital signs every 2 minutes or would it be sufficient to document one set with a comment: Patient remained pulseless throughout? As well, CPR charted once, with a similar comment: CPR performed throughout. In my opinion, this would be more efficient and concise.

As well, if in a position where we are transporting a VSA patient, as an ACP I have always performed a rhythm interpretation even while the vehicle is moving. I have never really noticed artifact as an issue, and cannot find any documentation relating to ACP practice stating I must pull over. I have not had any feedback from base hospital regarding this practice, but my supervisor has mentioned some serious concerns.

Thanks again for this forum that helps our practice.

Question: I have a question regarding nitro use with lung cancer patients. I recently had a patient who was obviously in the end stages of lung CA. Patient was complaining of mild SOB due excessive amounts of fluid buildup in his lungs. He stated that he needed to go to the hospital to have the fluid drained. Patent had 5-6 word dyspnea, O2 sats at 92 %, radial pulse 90, NSR, respiratory rate 22 regular, audible crackles when patient took a deep breath, and B/P 124/86. Patient stated that within the last couple of days he had noticed swelling to his ankles and abdomen which were abnormal for him. Patient had a previous history of nitro use due to angina. Would this patient benefit at all with nitro use? He wasn’t in severe respiratory distress nor did he require assisted ventilations.

Question: This question is regarding advance airway. I really don’t like the basic airway first then if there is a problem, now go to the advance airway, ie: intubation, I have had saves due intubation right away. Once the vomit starts it’s very hard to control the airway or intubate, during CPR, the vomit can come out in excess amounts that the suction cannot keep up with, let alone if by chance you do get a save, the patient dies of aspiration pneumonia later! Yes it’s a paramedic’s discretion to intubate or not, if you have a good seal with a basic airway and an IV you can run a code, and it’s also said intubation stops CPR, well all the CPR in the world won’t help if the airway is uncontrolled. This ROC survey with basic airway for the first 6 minutes can really cause a negative patient outcome if he vomits in excess. Well at least my compression stats are good!!!! Maybe this should be discussed in the next recert. Signed an ALS Paramedic.

Question: When dealing with a VSA FB obstruction, directives are to analyze once, load and go, revert to medical cardiac arrest if airway clears. Knowing the concern is no air to the patient due to the obstruction, would it not be advantageous to include airway blockage due to anaphylaxis as a one analysis directive and when or if the epi allows for the delivery of air, revert to a medical cardiac arrest? The airway is blocked either way.

Question: Does a patient that suffered from hanging, electrocution, and/or drowning fall under medical tor protocol? Also, if a patient is suffering from anaphylaxis and airway is completely obstructed and you had analyzed once and transported as per FB protocol if on route airway becomes relieved and you have good compliance do you pull over and start your medical cardiac arrest protocol? If first analyze on scene was no shock and you do pull over and have two more no shocks does it fall under a medical tor protocol?

Question: In the event of a VSA where Anaphylaxis is the suspected cause, when would be the most ideal time to administer Epinephrine IM? I’m assuming we would start with CPR, attach PADS, Analyze, then Epi. Would this be a safe assumption?

Question: I was recently on a call with a patient presenting with a tachy rhythm of 157 and his blood pressure was 74/42. I proceeded to start a line and was going to bolus but subsequent pressures were above 90 systolic. Would it have been reasonable to not bolus due to the fact that this patient most likely had a decreased BP due to the Fast heart rate and not because of a fluid deficit?

Question: I’m an IV certified PCP. A question came up last week in regards to aortic aneurysms and different blood pressures bilaterally. If one BP is hypotensive, and the other is normo- or hyper- do we bolus? Ideas that have come up include: Adding fluid may increase the overall pressure, causing the dissection to enlarge; however, the patient is losing fluid and therefore is compensating and needs more.

Question: A couple of questions in regards to CPAP use for acute pulmonary edema. I wondered if the medical directive intended for CPAP use in other cases of acute pulmonary edema other than the situation arising from heart failure. For example secondary drowning several hours after initial insult or inhalation injuries in the absence of facial or thorax burns that could be seen with chemicals or fire? It would be reasonable to assume that these insults would cause trauma to the lung tissue and increase the risks for developing pneumothorax as a complication, however in instances like this would CPAP be recommended, beneficial or allowed.

Second part would be the use of CPAP for those with complex medical issues such as those patients with Hx of asthma, COPD and CHF. If you where to treat with CPAP for say evidence of acute pulmonary edema and crackles resolved, but wheezes remained would there be benefit to consider ventolin for bronchoconstriction via MDI or neb through the CPAP device? Typically ventolin is not considered in these instances but auscultation in the prehospital setting has limitations and with complex medical histories cardiac asthma and COPD exacerbation may also be part of the overall medical situation.

I thank you for your comments and insights.

Question: My questions have to do with resolved suspected ischemic chest pain and if we should administer ASA even if the symptoms have resolved.

Question: I am a PCP student, Under the cardiac ischemia medical directive it states that indications for nitro and ASA are “suspected cardiac ischemia” my question is, a patient without chest pain but has other symptoms such as weakness SOB, N/V etc. and a positive 12 lead showing either ST elevation or depression, do they qualify for Nitro under this protocol?

Question: What are your thoughts on oxygen therapy in myocardial ischemia from a medical evidence standpoint? Even though high flow o2 is regularly administered to PTs with chest pain as per the oxygen therapy and chest pain standards in the BLS standards, there is an increasing body of evidence suggesting that in uncomplicated MI O2 is of no benefit and may cause more harm than good due to ROS and ischemia-reperfusion injury.

The recent ACLS guidelines state to only administer O2 in acute coronary syndromes if the spo2 is < 94% or the PT is in respiratory distress or obviously hypoxic and there are several recent papers and clinical guidelines that suggest a similar course of action in uncomplicated MI. Basically, the evidence is suggesting that titration to spo2 is favorable over high flow o2 due to the risk of oxidative stress injury.

Any thoughts? Obviously you still follow the protocols, but I’m just interested to see if there is any medical opinion on this. Could the standards/guidelines eventually change to reflect the newer evidence?

Question: My question had to do with attending to a call where a patient is VSA and then throughout our medical directive the patient receives a ROSC and then a re-arrest. I know that in the old medical directive we would at this time do one further analysis and then transport the patient but in our current medical directives this is not mentioned. I would like to know if I should be attempting any analysis on a patient who re-arrests after receiving an initial ROSC with our current medical directive.

Question: This question is to clarify a point in the FBAO cardiac arrest protocol. If the airway obstruction is resolved after a first analysis, it is stated that the patient can then be treated per the medical cardiac arrest directive (presumably receiving three more analyses for a total of four). My question is regarding what to do if transport is in progress when the obstruction is removed- is transport continued with CPR only (as it is not a new arrest or a re-arrest after ROSC) or can the vehicle be stopped until the protocol is complete?

Question: Two questions which seem simple but as an educator I get asked all the time. 1.) FBAO VSA patient, you are unable to clear the airway, should we follow the BLS that indicates an oral airway should be inserted? 2.) Unwitnessed VSA, do we need to do a full two minutes of CPR or just CPR until we get the pads on.

Question: I recently had my recerts and have a question concerning Medical TOR. The way it was explained to me was that a TOR was a pronouncement. It was explained to me, if we receive a TOR in the back of the unit before the vehicle is put into drive, we have stay on scene with a patient until the coroner comes. Likewise if we received the TOR while the vehicle was in motion we could continue to the hospital. I really don’t understand the difference as to whether the vehicle is in gear or not. I was under the impression that if we receive a TOR, it is simply that, terminate resuscitation and continue transport (no lights and sirens) with no resuscitation. The decision on route would then be, do we go to the morgue or to the ER. I understand the delicacy of appearances and you may have to leave scene with lights and sirens but once away from the scene, judgment on activation of emergency signals would be up to the driver/crew. Could you elaborate some more on this?

My question concerning TOR is this. Is a patient deemed dead at the time of TOR or are they deemed dead when assessed either at the hospital by an ER physician or at the scene by the coroner?

Question: I am a current PCP taking ACP. I was recently informed, during an ACP class, that on an unconscious CHF patient, nitro can still be administered if vitals are within normal range and the other conditions are met. When I checked the protocols, under conditions, it states that LOA: N/A (whereas for cardiac ischemia, the LOA must be unaltered). However, it seems to me that if the patient is unconscious, the patient is too unstable to receive nitro. I have never experienced a call like this, and it would seem that in most cases an unconscious patient would have vitals outside the perimeters of nitro administration. Can you please verify this? Thanks

Question: I have a question about a call. Male patient severe SOB. Crackles throughout with a GCS of 4, suspected acute pulmonary edema. Obviously patient of out nitro protocol. Patient’s spo2 31 and 42% with mottling noted. Patient’s initial pulse 42 with a respiration rate of 33. CPAP is contraindicated at this time so ventilations assisted via BVM. Enroute patient’s GCS improves to 15 and spo2 increases to 99% with ventilation assist. At this point could CPAP be applied or is it like the nitro protocol, once your out your out?

Question: I just have a quick question regarding IV Monitoring. Are PCP’s allowed to transport a patient without an escort who has an IV running lactated ringers? This question came up the other day at work and everyone seems to have a different answer. I just wanted to clear this up with you so I know the correct answer!

Question: On medical VSA’s, as an IV certified PCP, if you have time and enough hands to start an IV, are you giving a fluid bolus? I realize when you get a ROSC you are doing a fluid bolus of 10ml/kg (if chest is clear), but while the patient is VSA, are you giving a bolus? Or are you starting a line, just running TKVO in preparation of getting a ROSC and then bolusing?

Question: I am a recent graduate and have a question regarding the traumatic VSA protocol. We arrive on scene to find 5 patients. Two are VSA and three are CTAS 2. The next ambulance is 5 min away. We use triage but after the three CTAS 2 patients are gone what do we do with the 2 VSA patients? Are we to do a Trauma TOR? Or is it just left at that point?