Question: How can we deal with doctors at clinics that abuse the EMS system? We frequently go to these clinics, lights and sirens, only to arrive with a non-emergency call. More often than not, the patient states “the doctor called you guys, because she said I will get in quicker than driving in by car.” It gets very aggravating when the general public abuse the medical system, but when a medical doctor does it, that is way worse.

Question: Although not employed by a service under the SWORBHP, I have been closely following this site and your LINKS newsletter. Thank you for both of these invaluable resources. After reading the most recent question regarding spinal immobilization, I had to share a resource with you that can located here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eM4hxuooNN0. This is a lecture by Dr. Ryan Jacobson, a former paramedic who is now medical director of Johnson County EMS in Kansas and Assistant Professor of Emergency Medicine at University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine. If you have already seen it, you are familiar with its informative value. If not, I’m confident that you will find it of value. This link is unplublished and cannot be found via YouTube search.

Something that I have been wondering after viewing the lecture and statistical evidence is as follows. Hypothetically, if the current practice of securing patients to backboards increases morbidity and mortality (particularly penetrating trauma) and that there is greater spinal movement than if secured directly to the stretcher, and that no negative effects have been observed by not securing to a backboard, is it reasonable to consider foregoing the backboard as care superior to the minimum requirement as written in the BLS? Similarly to a “letter of the law” vs. “spirit of the law” question. LBBs have been contraindicated for transport in Queensland, Australia for the past five years among numerous other jurisdictions. I’ve inquired with my employer but was given the old “We have standards” response.

Thank you for your time and consideration on this topic. I look forward to your reply.

Question: I have heard the term “best practice” used quite often in the past little while. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the means of “best practice”, and if the SWORBHP guidelines can be considered “best practice”?

If not, where would one look to ensure they are using the “best practice”? For example, in recent studies, best practice may not be to administer oxygen to each and every patient, however the BLS states that we should administer oxygen to each patient.

Question: What is the criteria necessary for the starting process of implementing a new directive/protocol for pre-hospital settings?

Question: How often should you reassess the respiratory rate for apneic patients?

Question: I have been to a few calls where the patient does not have a DNR, but the death is expected and family does not want CPR or other interventions. The family will make statements like “we don’t want CPR” or they wouldn’t want CPR”, etc. Do we initiate the CPR and Defibrillation protocols until we can get hold of the BHP or do we run the call and transport regardless of family request?

Question: Can an obstruction of the esophagus cause an obstruction of the airway?

Question: In which instance should a transdermal patch be removed in the pre-hospital setting? Example 1: Hypotensive patient with a Nitro patch on. Example 2: VSA with a narcotic patch on. Example 3: Suspected OD with a narcotic patch on (or several).

Question: There is some confusion about patients that have a valid DNR, and are very sick requiring transport. It makes sense that many of the ACP skills might not be utilized on these patients, and CPAP would be a PCP skill. There are cases where the family changes their mind on a DNR, and cases where the status is not clear. There are also other cases where a patient may be a trauma and have a valid DNR where they may need a needle decompression, but not necessarily cardiac arrest needing CPR or intubation. Is it OK for ACPs not to attend valid DNR patients?

Question: I am a PCP-IV medic who recently transferred a patient between facilities – from county hospital to trauma centre. On arrival I was told by the attending physician that the patient was to be spinal immobilized as a precaution as instructed by the trauma centre. The physician also informed me that the trauma centre requested that the patient receive 1000ml NaCl prior to arrival at the LTC. I inquired about the patient’s vitals and assessed the patient as normotensive with no indications of poor perfusion. I told the physician that my protocols did not permit me to fluid bolus the patient with up to 1000ml enroute unless the patient was hypotensive and remained hypotensive. Moreover the sending facility was not sending an escort on this long CODE 4 STAT transfer. I called my Duty Manager for advice and was told to abide by my directives and follow the BLS standard for IV monitoring – 200ml/hr max pending patient presentation enroute. This is the direction I proceeded with.

My question is – was I correct in my course of action and was it advisable to press the physician for an escort based on the requirements of the LTC?

Question: I have a question about postictal patients and cardiac monitoring. I have been told two things by several other partners in past few weeks. Assume you are a regular seizure patient whom you have seen many times and he/she is in their normal postictal state and you are not suspecting brain trauma. Is there any clinical reason/need to put cardiac monitor (e.g. limb leads) on? Also assuming you have a 1 min transport time. I was told as per BLS standard you “must” but in the postictal section it mentions that the paramedic may consider enroute. Thanks.

Question: I have recently came across a situation where an ACP/PCP crew decided to have the non-IV cert PCP attend a Stroke Protocol call, and the ACP replied that he/she did not think it was necessary. Because the protocol requests a IV be established whenever possible, should the ACP have attempted an IV and attended?

Question: I am just curious as to why SWORBHP or MAC has opted to pull the android/iPhone medical directives app? This was a great tool if a quick refresh was needed while en route to a call. I realize we should all know our protocols inside out, but sometimes a quick reference for reassurance is needed. I was under the impression when the app was pulled it was perhaps for a further refinement/usability and we would be seeing it again soon. It makes no sense that a tool like this was given to us then pulled back. Also, it’s a great tool for SWORBHP to update any protocol changes from year to year as you are no longer supplying us with books.

Question: Are there contraindications for sager applications?

Question: Penetrating without neurological deficits. Delay on scene to spinal immobilize?

Question: Here is a question that has been up for debate from a few paramedics I work with. If you have a penetrating trauma, either in the chest or back, the BLS states to immobilize the object and transport to the best of your ability.

If the patient were to go VSA and the object was impeding CPR, either from the chest or back (not being able to do proper compressions), it was my understanding that we as paramedics are supposed to remove the object if we cannot do proper CPR instead of working around the object, which is the counter argument. What is the direction regarding this?

Question: I am seeking direction in the management of a patient(s) who have sustained exposure to Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S) in suicide; taking into account the presenting HAZ-Mat situation and the associated dangers to 911 allied agency personnel. Specifically, assessments, resuscitation, TOR, field pronouncement, transport guidelines and recommendations.

My major concern is the potential harm to transporting crews due to external ventilation of the lethal gases notably if the Fire Dep’t “4 Gas Monitor” monitors indicate a presence of H2S.

Question: In the thermal burns webinar very near the end, mention was made of London Fire carrying an ointment for treating burns. If Fire had not applied this prior to a paramedic taking over care for the patient, could the medic allow the ointment to be applied or apply it themselves? Or would this fall out of our scope of practice because such treatment isn’t mentioned in the BLS or Medical Directives?

Question: What position should patients be in when we are doing do a 12-lead?

Question: I recently did a transfer with a physician going to LHSC University Hospital with a confirmed subarachnoid bleed. The patient was conscious, conversed and was oriented x 3. They were mildly lethargic, c/o an occipital headache with no neuro deficits. The physician accompanied the patient to give a medication to keep the BP on or around 140 systolic.

During transport, the patients BP began to rise to 160-180 because of nausea and vomiting. Gravol was administered and a drug (sorry, I can’t recall the name).

He asked me if we carried anything that could drop the BP. He suggested Nitro. I know this is not listed as a contraindication but would it be wise to give a vaso dilator to a patient with a cerebral bleed. We did not administer nitro, but the question still remains. Thanks in advance.

Question: I was told by a physician that a DNR becomes void with a suicide attempt. I was wondering how we should approach this situation.

Question: VSA trauma patients – chest compressions and defib is the priority for this patient. C-spine maintained manually. In this scenario, is it mandatory to apply a collar prior to a shock being delivered as the manual c-spine must be removed to deliver the shock?

CPAP- indication b/p 100 or above systolic. Contraindication is hypotension. If CPAP is applied while normotensive, can we leave the device on until they become hypotensive or we must remove when b/p drops below 100? Thanks.

Question: I have read the post Jan. 31 2012 in regards to R/A vs. 02 when resuscitating a neonate. It states that 100% 02 will be used after 90 sec with compressions if HR is below 60. It also states that 100% 02 will be continued until HR is normal. Does this refer to 100 bpm?

The reason I ask is if I read the flow chart to the letter at 90 sec with a HR below 60, 02 and compressions are begun. If I reassess 30 sec later and the HR has improved above 60 but below 100 (ex. 80 bpm), I continue ventilating, but do I discontinue the 02 and use R/A only? Also compressions are to be discontinued. What is stance on using a pedi-mate on a critical or VSA neonate or child (below 40 lbs)? Is it necessary as it can be cumbersome and time consuming when trying to get off scene quickly?

Question: I’ve heard the discussion among crews about allowing certain procedures to be performed on patients while still on EMS stretchers and on delay. I’ve received conflicting responses. I am perfectly fine with 12 lead, blood samples and going to x-ray while patient is with EMS. I’m not comfortable with any medications being given outside my scope of practice while under my care. Some crews say no “hospital” procedures are to be done until the patient is accepted by the ER. My personal opinion is that is possibly delaying patient care and causing more back up delays in the ER. I’ve received different opinions by our management. I know MAC cannot answer to service direction but what is the direction of MAC to what can or should be allowed to be performed by ER staff while under EMS care.

Question: Is a non-IV certified paramedic allowed to monitor an IV started TKVO by an IV certified paramedic on route to the hospital?

Question: Why don’t Base Hospital Doctors at either Hospital carry a cellphone so when paramedic’s call for a physician patch that call goes directly to them instead of being routed to triage and then to the red phone at either hospital? I have had a couple of calls recently where by the time I was speaking to the Doctor we were almost at the hospital when I got the order. I think this would be a tremendous asset for the medics if we could have this option.

Question: Would SWORBHP ever consider putting a system in place for medics to learn the in hospital diagnosis of patients they transported. There are times when we transport patients and never learn what was causing them to present as they did. I think it would be beneficial to learn what the cause of the patient’s condition in those instances for our own improvement and growth. I understand it would be unreasonable to do this for every patient but it would not be difficult to set up a flagging system to tag specific interesting calls. A system similar to the follow up after a ROSC may be a model to base it on.

Question: I am asked to transport a patient to the cath lab. The new onset unstable angina patient (who is bradicardic with a lowest rate of 38 and multiple unifocal pvcs) and is only CP free because of the nitro during patch put on by the ER doctor.

Does leaving the patch on constitute me giving a medication that is out of my skill set? Since she/he is bradicardic (but has a good pressure) do I have to remove it? Do I have the ability/obligation to remove a treatment started by the attending ER physician? Escort required? Other suggestions?

Question: I was just wondering if we have a patient with a valid DNR are we still allowed to Bolus if they fit our protocol or is this considered an advanced life saving technique?

Question: What is the Medical Director’s direction on doing repeated blood sugars after treatment for hypoglycemia? I recently had a patient who complained of chest pain after a fall. He was a diabetic with a GCS of 14 on initial assessment. His blood sugar was 3.8 and I treated him with oral glucose. He felt better and his GCS became 15. I got a comment back from an auditor who felt I should have done a follow up blood sugar after treating him. I was always taught that it was unnecessary to do a blood glucose if the patient had a GCS of 15. Has there been a change in thinking?

Question: This question is regarding cardiac arrest documentation expectations. Is it a requirement to document vital signs every 2 minutes or would it be sufficient to document one set with a comment: Patient remained pulseless throughout? As well, CPR charted once, with a similar comment: CPR performed throughout. In my opinion, this would be more efficient and concise.

As well, if in a position where we are transporting a VSA patient, as an ACP I have always performed a rhythm interpretation even while the vehicle is moving. I have never really noticed artifact as an issue, and cannot find any documentation relating to ACP practice stating I must pull over. I have not had any feedback from base hospital regarding this practice, but my supervisor has mentioned some serious concerns.

Thanks again for this forum that helps our practice.

Question: I had a call today to a nursing home where the patient had a valid DNR. The patient was in agonal respirations. The staff stated the patient HAD to be transported to ER as per direct orders from the doctor on call for the nursing home. She kept saying the patient was a level 3 and he had to go to ER. My partner and I told the staff we cannot do anything for him and with a valid DNR the patient does not need to be transported. The staff argued with us more saying the patient had to go and that they already called ER. Instead of getting into it further with staff my partner and I loaded the patient and went to ER. We transported Code 3 as the patient expired as soon and we left for ER. Were we right in doing so? I pre alerted ER about the situation and they were accommodating when we got there.

Question: This question is regarding not giving Narcan to a DNR patient. Obviously, if there is not an underlining medical issue (e.g. terminal CA) and a patient ODs, even with a DNR, we attempt to reverse any issues. However, if the patient does have a medical issue with a DNR, has decided to OD to commit suicide and is in a pre-arrest / arrested state, is it reasonable to assume that since they are breaking the law, that the DNR can no longer be valid?

Question: If a patient meets the protocol for having CPAP treatment but they have a valid DNR Confirmation Form can a PCP still administer CPAP?

Question: When dealing with a VSA FB obstruction, directives are to analyze once, load and go, revert to medical cardiac arrest if airway clears. Knowing the concern is no air to the patient due to the obstruction, would it not be advantageous to include airway blockage due to anaphylaxis as a one analysis directive and when or if the epi allows for the delivery of air, revert to a medical cardiac arrest? The airway is blocked either way.

Question: If a patient has a valid DNR, can they still fall under the Stroke Protocol? I realize the protocol’s contraindications list a palliative patient or terminally ill but does not address DNR. DNR in my point of view only applies to a patient who is dead, and wishes to not be resuscitated. Treatment for stroke at a proper facility could restore the patient’s quality of life if such is affected by the stroke, and I feel they should still be included. I just wanted to verify.

Question: I am a recent grad from the PCP program and a new hire at my service. I have a question regarding packaging. We were called code 4 for a patient who had a fall. A call from a wrist alarm company.

Patient was found on floor by superintendent in the patient’s building after connect care instructed the super. Upon arrival patient was found still sitting on the floor. The carpet behind the patient had a small pool approx. 200mls. Patient cannot remember event but is LOA x 3, good long term memory. Patient does not know how long she has been on the ground.

Physical assessments – Trauma noted on back of head. Lac (bleeding stopped) + Hematoma approx. 1 inch diameter noted on occipital area. Chest is clear, abdomen soft and non tender, pelvis stable, no trauma otherwise noted.

Equal grip strengths. Pupils PERL. Vitals are all within normal limits. Patient upon assessment has no complaints. No dizziness, no lightheaded. NO c-spine, tenderness, no back pain.

It looked as though the patient fell from height, backwards, struck head on dresser and activated wrist alarm. I decided to package the patient as a precaution. I padded the backboard with a towel before laying patient head on the board.

My question is was it necessary to apply collar and backboard this patient? Patient had no c-spine tenderness, no back pain, LOA x 3, good long term memory only issue is patient cannot remember the fall. Patient had no complaint, except the pain from the hematoma against the board.

Question: My question is regarding CTAS with symptoms relief administration. It was my understanding that years ago symptom relief pocket books had an adverb that read something to the effect of ” If a symptom relief medication is administered then you should return to the ED no less than CTAS 2″. It seems to me there are circumstances that would allow symptom relief to be administered and return CTAS 3 or less. (i.e. Nausea due to flu gravol administered, mild to moderate allergic reactions with benadryl administered…) I had a debate with a peer stating it was their belief that any time SR is administered we are still to return code 4 CTAS 2. I was under the impression as thinking medics we could use some discretion, is this the case or should we always return minimum CTAS 2 in that scenario.

Question: This question is to clarify a point in the FBAO cardiac arrest protocol. If the airway obstruction is resolved after a first analysis, it is stated that the patient can then be treated per the medical cardiac arrest directive (presumably receiving three more analyses for a total of four). My question is regarding what to do if transport is in progress when the obstruction is removed- is transport continued with CPR only (as it is not a new arrest or a re-arrest after ROSC) or can the vehicle be stopped until the protocol is complete?

Question: On a recent call, we transported a patient from a nursing home with a valid MOHLTC DNR. In the middle of all the paperwork was a nursing home DNR with level 1, level 2, and there was a check mark that the patient did not want to decide on a DNR status at this time. The MOHLTC DNR was dated in 2009 and the nursing home DNR was dated 2010. Do we respect the valid MOHLTC DNR or the nursing home DNR dated later?

Question: Two questions which seem simple but as an educator I get asked all the time. 1.) FBAO VSA patient, you are unable to clear the airway, should we follow the BLS that indicates an oral airway should be inserted? 2.) Unwitnessed VSA, do we need to do a full two minutes of CPR or just CPR until we get the pads on.

Question: I recently had my recerts and have a question concerning Medical TOR. The way it was explained to me was that a TOR was a pronouncement. It was explained to me, if we receive a TOR in the back of the unit before the vehicle is put into drive, we have stay on scene with a patient until the coroner comes. Likewise if we received the TOR while the vehicle was in motion we could continue to the hospital. I really don’t understand the difference as to whether the vehicle is in gear or not. I was under the impression that if we receive a TOR, it is simply that, terminate resuscitation and continue transport (no lights and sirens) with no resuscitation. The decision on route would then be, do we go to the morgue or to the ER. I understand the delicacy of appearances and you may have to leave scene with lights and sirens but once away from the scene, judgment on activation of emergency signals would be up to the driver/crew. Could you elaborate some more on this?

My question concerning TOR is this. Is a patient deemed dead at the time of TOR or are they deemed dead when assessed either at the hospital by an ER physician or at the scene by the coroner?

Question: I am a recent graduate and have a question regarding the traumatic VSA protocol. We arrive on scene to find 5 patients. Two are VSA and three are CTAS 2. The next ambulance is 5 min away. We use triage but after the three CTAS 2 patients are gone what do we do with the 2 VSA patients? Are we to do a Trauma TOR? Or is it just left at that point?

Question: A patient requires assisted ventilations via BVM for shortness of breath for CHF or for exacerbated asthma, can we assisted ventilations for this patient. I understand that we cannot perform artificial respirations for a patient who is apneic, but can we assist ventilations with a patient who is conscious and breathing on their own, but needs assistance? Patient has a valid DNR.

Question: Just some clarification in regards to DNR’s. If a patient is having an episode of an exacerbated Asthma and has a valid DNR, do we administer Epi for the asthma? I understand that we cannot “bag” the Patient due to the DNR status.

Question: To what extent am I allowed to take orders from a physician who is riding out with me? Are there any set guidelines to direct us and the physicians in this aspect? A recent resident riding with me said they had no issue with providing the order if it seemed reasonable. Narcan administration was used as an example as something that seemed reasonable. However the resident felt (and I agreed) something like a TOR order warranted a call to a BHP. Discussion of this subject would be appreciated.

Question: I work out of a first response vehicle. If I start an IV to deliver a med such as gravol, and the patient will not require anymore treatment via IV and I am handing the patient over to a crew that is not IV certified what is my responsibility? Do I have to accompany the patient? Or can I lock the IV or can they monitor the IV TKVO?

Question: I have recently received an ACR audit, and have spoken to others, within my service, who have received audits as well, stating that a DNR patient who has not arrested should be ventilated via BVM. Everyone is under the impression that a DNR patient should not be bagged. I know that I have had previous conversations with SWORBHP educators in which the final word on this subject had been no BVM in the presence of a DNR irregardless of whether then patient was VSA or pre-arrest. A similar question on this issue was previously asked and answered on 1-March-2012 with the resulting answer being “therefore, to answer your question, if a valid DNR form is available, none of these “advanced cardiopulmonary resuscitation” procedures should be initiated, period. The SWORBHP medical directors would suggest that this is independent of whether or not the patient has completely arrested or not”. The question now is what is the right thing to do? What we have previously been told is right or what the auditors are now saying we should be doing? Could you please shed some light on the situation because there’s once again a lot of confusion surrounding the correct application of the DNR. Thanks.

Question: Can an off duty medic who stops to assist an on duty crew the care (in the area for which he works and is certified) at an accident scene or medical event provide advanced care i.e. IV, med administration injections etc.?

Question: I have heard paramedics inquiring amongst fellow paramedics about the use of epi without a cardiac monitor applied or a full set of vitals when dealing with a patient who is suffering from anaphylaxis. My stance is that all meds (except ASA) require a full set of vitals and the cardiac monitor applied. Please clarify.