In the case of a workable drowning VSA, that is not in a shockable rhythm, would it be in the best interest to call for a TOR, preform 20 minutes or resuscitation or transport early? Would this fall under extenuating circumstances?

I am looking for clarification on whether or not pre-arrival shocks count towards consideration of a medical TOR with the new 20 minute protocol. I have reviewed the companion document and note it does state, “As a general rule, Paramedics do NOT count pre-arrival interventions in their patient care. Care delivered prior to arrival can be “considered” and documented.” I also found a previous Ask Mac response from Dec 22 2017 asking the same question, however the answer was at the time of the previous Medical Cardiac Arrest Directive (4 analyses only). In Mac’s response at that time they did state, “SWORBHP Medical Council believes that ANY defibrillation delivered to a patient during a cardiac arrest resuscitation should be counted and considered as a contraindication to the application of the TOR.” Looking for clarity between these statements and the new protocol. Thanks for the information!

If a patient is suffering a medical event in nature, and goes VSA (for the first time, NOT a re-arrest) en route to the hospital, do we pull over and run the arrest for 20 minutes, or would we use clinical consideration that egress has commenced, and do one analysis and continue transport (under the circumstance that pt at that time is in a non shockable rhythm)? 

In the latest version of the companion document (v5.1) the following is stated “For a witnessed arrest in the back of the ambulance paramedics should use clinical judgment to decide whether to stay and perform resuscitation or proceed to hospital. Paramedic should perform three full analysis and then proceed/patch or to provide one analysis and go. The paramedic should provide at minimum one analysis. Factors that are part of the decision process include distance to closest hospital, probable cause of arrest, ability to provide adequate CPR/ventilation, shockable vs non-shockable etc..”. I was told during my recert in November that this scenario would warrant a 20 minute resuscitation. Can you please clarify.

If My patient goes VSA in the back of the truck (witnessed, first time VSA). We do not do 20 min CPR? Or we do 3 analysis and go after? And/or 1 analysis and go? Does the same apply witness VSA in the home? Do these require patch to leave early? There has been excessive talk over this and little clarification.

Refractory V-fib for the new medical cardiac VSA directive. Are we to only get our three shocks and go. Or can we give an additional shock if time permits due to extrication or extenuating circumstances? Just looking for clarification.

If we pick up a patient and the patient presents with a positive 12-lead STEMI and you are travelling to the PCI Center and the patient codes, do we run the full 20 minute cardiac arrest protocol, or could you consider STEMI as a reversible cause (Hs and Ts) , analyze once and head to the closest receiving which may not be the PCI due to distance.

Hello, with the changes to PCP medical cardiac arrest, since there is no longer a maximum number of analysis are we expected to continue to analysis the rhythm every two minutes on route to hospital if were transporting?. Seems like it would delay our arrival time a fair bit to pull over every two minutes especially in the county. Also, if a confirmed STEMI codes on route, should we be running a full 20 minute resuscitation before continuing transport, or would that be considered a reversible cause to transport after one analysis?. Thanks

The new Medical Cardiac Arrest Directive requires 20 minutes of resuscitation on scene. Point # 5 of the Primary Clinical Consideration(s) states …or other known reversible cause of arrest not addressed. My question has to do with refractory PEA and the amount of potential reversible causes (7 Hs 5 Ts). Would it be reasonable to patch for request of early transport in the presence of 3 consecutive analysis of PEA?

There has been a lot of debate in regard to the new medical cardiac arrest directive, especially when it comes to pediatric patients (1 day to less than 8 years old). Based on my understanding of the new directive, patients 24 hours old now fall under medical cardiac arrest which states that scene time is now 20 minutes unless you have a reversible cause or 3 consecutive shocks, since TOR would not apply here. Some paramedics express significant discomfort staying on scene for that long if the patient has been stabilized with good airway, quality compressions, and possibly defibrillation. Do you support paramedics leaving early in this setting where everything is done early or do you encourage us to stay on scene for 20 minutes? Does this benefit the patient when they could be receiving life saving drugs in a hospital, also knowing that we will eventually have to transport to a hospital no matter what?

Hello, what are the criteria for identifying hypothermia in a VSA patient? This affects our treatment under ALS PCS 5.1 whether we consider early transport after one analysis. The situation that brought up this discussion was a patient who had been on the floor indoors for a number of days, but still presented with a hypothermic body temperature. If the patient had been found VSA, how would we identify to treat them under the full medical cardiac arrest, or be considered for early transport?